Burn From Within

Uncovering 6 controls in your internal cockpit to avoid crash and burn in your life and career - Matt Garrow-Fisher

• Matt Garrow-Fisher • Season 1 • Episode 26

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Have you ever felt stressed, unhappy or going on an unsustainable path in life or at work?

We all have, as humans, at some point in our lives, right?

In this week’s episode, we explore 6 levels of human experience which, when we are consciously aware of them, can be tremendously useful when we feel stuck or misaligned in our lives. This is particularly true in our careers when figuring out and trying to pin26point why we are not happy.

Matt Garrow-Fisher shares insight from his conversations with Burn From Within show guests, examining their career and also lives at each of the following levels of human experience to identify where we can have misalignment:

Level 1 - Environment
Level 2 - Behaviour
Level 3 - Skills & Capabilities
Level 4 - Beliefs and Values
Level 5 - Identity (a powerful identity realisation is shared by Matt Harry in this episode)
Level 6 - Purpose

Instead of feeling stuck or unable to pinpoint the source of stress, unhappiness and that feeling that we don't want to carry on the career or life path we are on, we can investigate these levels to make changes so we have a clearer path for peace, joy, security and happiness.

Matt Garrow-Fisher examines the model inspired by Gregory Bateson (an English anthropologist) and developed by a pioneer of Neuro-Linguistic Programming Robert Dilts called Neurological Levels of Change.

I hope you relate to the conversations shared in this episode and they help you to understand how you can start to use this model at each level in your own lives. Whether you feel internally misaligned in your career or in other life areas, to find opportunities to become more aligned and happy.

Resources:

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 In this week’s episode, we explore deeper something I promised to cover last week that’s such an important model to me and other people’s lives, I had to share it sooner rather than later on the show.

Have you ever felt stressed, unhappy and going on an unsustainable path in life or at work?

We all have, as humans, at some point in our lives, right?

Here's a perfect example from Malia Griggs, who I interviewed about what lead to her severe burnout and in this clip, she talks about why one of her direct reports as Director of Social Media at The Daily Mash quit her job. When you listen to this clip, I want you to reflect on elements you are unhappy about in your own life, as we're going to start to use an incredible model to investigate where you might be misaligned internally, so we can find opportunities to change and feel happier, less stressed, more at peace or even lit up with excitement from within

Last year  you were at a very, very busy job. so it was director of social media. And, that was the moment where, I remember reading an article that you wrote about, you know, you were receiving Slack messages and then you. Started to basically weep. And I think you asked yourself, what is this all for?

What is your source for? and then that was the moment where you decided that's it I'm quitting. Yeah. Maybe take us back. So that moment, you know, what, what was that like and 

what 

was going on in your experience then? 

Yeah, actually, I was sitting at the same table I'm at now  just my dining table slash one of my desks.

I haven't a real desk, but I just, I just can't seem to use it. yeah, , it was a period where someone had just left I'm on my team from burnout. And when that person who I'd hired, cared and who I cared about a lot, gave notice. The reasons that she voiced to me for leaving, I could hear all of the similarities for what I was experiencing.

So she said, you know, it's a very thankless role. You know, I like my team. I love a lot of my coworkers, but it's a, it's an invisible job and we're working around the clock and a very punishing news cycle. And it's just kind of feels like, what is this for? And this is what she said to me essentially. and when she said it, I, you know, I couldn't really say to her as her boss, you know, I'm really going through the same thing, but I just said, I, I know I, you know, I completely understand.

And I had never really taken a proper medical leave. I think the one that I should have taken then, and so all of these things were just coming together at one time. And so I was on my computer. And I, it was some sort of, there was nothing that major, there was not a major moment. Like, I don't remember what the person said to me on Slack that triggered me, but I had been working from home for, you know, maybe two weeks straight because commuting even was exhausting.

And so I was asking to just work remotely while I was covering different people's shifts. and I had been gone enough crying. You know, no, I guess I hadn't been prying until that point. So that was the first time I really sort of broke down. and I didn't say out loud, like, what is that? So for what am I doing?

Why am I, I mean, I really care about the news, you know, and I care about getting stories to people and storytelling, and I care about. you know, the people that I'm managing and my coworkers, but I had, I had been putting off my own mental health for so long. and the, the things I needed to do to just manage my own anxiety and my burnout.

And I realized that at some point, you know, it had to be me some at some point. I would have to be the one that was quitting and leaving. And because the second I hired someone else, someone else in my team would inevitably quit because I knew that they were, the rest of them were not, very happy either.

So let's unpack what Malia just shared there. You see, at some level, Malia was not happy in her job and nor was her direct report in her team who she really cared about. And when I say at some level she was not happy, I say that very deliberately.

I mentioned in the last episode of the show about 6 Levels of Human experience that we all operate at at any one time. The levels again for those that missed last week's analysis episode are:

1] Environment, 2] Behvaiours, 3] Skills or Capabilities, 4] Beliefs or Values, 5] Identity and 6] Purpose

When someone like Malia, or you the audience, are reflecting thoughts about our own lives, We can use an awareness of these levels to pinpoint at which level misalignments can be happening.

Let's breakdown what Malia shared about her colleage that quit her job before her]

it's a very thankless role. You know, I like my team. I love a lot of my coworkers, but it's a, it's an invisible job and we're working around the clock and a very punishing news cycle. And it's just kind of feels like, what is this for?

At an environment level - this is about things external to you, such as your workplace, your colleagues, the location you live in - Malia's colleague is aligned in some ways. She likes her team. At another level, the values level - she may value being seen, heard and respected in the contributions she makes in her work, so there is a misalignment in the statement "it's an invisible job"

And at another level, the highest level of the 6 levels of human experience, there is a misalignment at the level of purpose, when she said "And it just feels like, what is this for?"

Back at the environment level, working around the clock with a very punishing news cycle - in her working environment essentially and working culture, there is an internal conflict.]

Relating to Malia's colleague in your own life, at the environment level, with your workplace, colleagues, company culture, town you live in, people you work with, - in which areas are you happy about or we can say internally aligned? And which areas are there inner conflicts, you aren't happy about? 

Perhaps you can also relate in having a conflict in what you value too in your work or in your life - at the values level? We'll explore more about values with other clips don't worry!  Certainly at some point you may have asked the same question. Malia's colleague, what is this for? Whether that's related to your career business relationships? When we really question the meaning behind a career or life path we're on. If we haven't gotten onto who we're happy with, perhaps we're misaligned internally at the purpose level.

How can you relate to this in your own life or career now?

and so all of these things were just coming together at one time. And so I was on my computer. And I, it was some sort of, there was nothing that major, there was not a major moment. Like, I don't remember what the person said to me on Slack that triggered me,

and I had been gone enough crying. You know, no, I guess I hadn't been prying until that point. So that was the first time I really sort of broke down. and I didn't say out loud, like, what is that? So for

You see, I've been in moments like this in my life, crying to myself because I was unhappy. I couldn't pinpoint the reason, and then hired some to explore this with me, and learned some of these tools for myself so I wouldn't suddenly break down but take conscious steps to check in with myself and make tiny adjustments to change where I felt misaligned, and the areas I felt aligned on, perhaps double down on those where there is an opportunity to.

In Malia's case, she had a realisation after her colleague left of areas she was aligned in

Why am I, I mean, I really care about the news, you know, and I care about getting stories to people and storytelling, and I care about. you know, the people that I'm managing and my coworkers, 

but other areas were being neglected that were taking a toll mentally and physically

but I had, I had been putting off my own mental health for so long. and the, the things I needed to do to just manage my own anxiety and my burnout.

And I realized that at some point, you know, it had to be me some at some point. I would have to be the one that was quitting and leaving. 

And of course, you can realise your life or career is on an unsustainable path once you develop symptoms of stress, burnout, strained relationships with friends and loved ones.

The reason, my purpose, in analysing these conversations with you right now, is for you to be aware of your cockpit controls in your life, part of which are these 6 Levels of Human Experience, and identify where there are misalignments, so you can course correct, and not crash and burn, in the case of Malia, with symptoms like epilesly, and then severe burnout - taking over a year off work to recover her mental and physical health

yeah, all, everything just was, I wasn't seeing my friends. I wasn't, you know, I was, I think I was not a pleasant person to be around and I was like, I couldn't cook.

I wasn't exercising. I know I had, I just, it was, it was, it just got to a point where I couldn't, I knew it. I wanted to see a therapist. I knew I wanted to be taking better care of myself. I felt like I. I couldn't do what I was doing and do that. And I couldn't change jobs because I couldn't figure out what job I should move to.

That wouldn't cause the same problem if I didn't seriously take time. And I didn't think that two weeks would be enough. I didn't think that two weeks between, new two jobs would be enough. I knew I needed more. So it felt like quitting was. Really the only option if I want to do maintain any semblance of my health.

When it comes to career change or a change in life path, often physical symptoms are signs you are internally misaligned. Here's another clip of  Patrick Ryder and symptoms from not just overwork but misalignment on various levels in his life and career

I think there's probably three areas, you know, physical, mental, and emotional. I'm sure that resonates with lots of people.

So, but for me, you know, it's well documented what the, what the impact of stress can be in from a corporate. Day to day for me physically, I ended up losing, I knew something was badly wrong when I ended up losing something like 15 kilos in eight weeks without actually changing my diet at all. And without exercising a great deal.

So I was still eating burgers, you know, prep for lunch, that kind of thing. A lot of Asian, Chinese food, obviously. but losing 15 kilos is a huge amount of weight in a very short space of time. So that was one indicator. I think that got me seriously worried. yeah. Yeah, pure mental stress in that I've found that impossible to turn off, the global nature of the business, I was running meant that, you know, when Asia closes America opens and you're somewhere in the middle and so on and so on. And the nature of the connected business Wells nowadays means that you are.

Or you need to be seen to be available 24 seven response times and measured. There are metrics in place. There are deals that need doing et cetera, et cetera. So it's kind of the fair and greed. Perspective in its worst form, not greed from my parts, but greed from my, my company's part and the business world in general is part it's about making money.

Otherwise they'd be charities. but certainly you end up in a state of high anxiety. that you are either missing stuff or that you failed at staff or that the perception of you is that you're not putting your weights and things like that. So that manifested itself certainly physically for me. the second thing was, mentally.

And, I think that, the mental impact was very, very negative. it turned me into a very introverted person, and it, it was the total wrong kind of focus. and it meant that as a result, you know, the, the third part of things, my relationship, those all suffered. as a result of that is that I didn't, I wasn't the family guide that I should have been, that I wanted to be, that, I could have been.

and I think if you put all those three things together over time and you keep grinding it out, then something's going to break. And I felt that it. Treaty dead within me. And the impact on my marriage also was, was starting to be extremely detrimental as well. Even though my wife was, is also a, was also is a very sort of a senior executive with a lot of responsibility and pressure.

I just simply wasn't getting any kind of fulfillment out of business success and everything else was suffering as a result of that. 

So these 6 levels to explore in your life really can be like a mental health lipmus test to find out internal misalignments early so you stay healthy mentally and of course physically too.

 Often, when you put yourself in new environments, sometimes out of your comfort zone, you find new opportunities to spot what's missing in your life - what is misaligned. In Stevie Bellamy's case, living a lavish life, on paper, he ticked many boxes, and on multiple levels

Her had fancy cars, ate at expensive restaurants, bought designer clothes, holidayed in lavish getaways, etc but felt empty inside.

, I had a wonderful life. I had a beautiful home, beautiful cars, investment properties.

We had amazing holidays all around the world. 

I've gone to the Caribbean or, you know, to Alaska or skiing in Aspen, all those things. Just the shadow existed.  I mean,   it was beautiful. Five stars and everything, but there was no satisfaction. Not gonna understand how I felt when I came home. 

Yeah. 

I spent a fortune and had no joy to bring back.

There's a lot of people and there's always that meeting. Yeah. It, the harder   I worked, the more I made, I had investment properties. So everybody was envious of me, but I felt shallow. So, I didn't know what it was. I thought maybe I should try and discover God or, but having to Nepal literally changed my 

life.

It was through changing his environment, meeting new people, that Stevie discovered the value of compassion to others - for him, giving possessions he didn't need to those poorer than himself gave him joy and lit him up inside. He wasn't aware of this

before. So sometimes it's the people you meet and the experiences you have can help to unlock hidden keys at different levels - in this case at Stevie's value level, and his purpose level, that he tested and he realised they shifted him to be more internally aligned and ultimately happier

you mentioned about the moment when, you gave something to one of these children.   you said that the joy on their face, when you, when you gave whatever it was to them, like, can you tell me a little bit about that experience of like, how it might've changed you inside and what that was like?

giving something to a child over in, I believe in India at the time. Yeah, 

it was India. Yes. I made up a student pack for each child in school. It had 10 X, 10 exercise books and pencils.  the ruler, pencil, some balloons and some lollies, pretty simple. It's around $5 worth. So for a school of 60 kids, it's $300 to supply enough stationary to last them a whole year, which is nothing.

 This  is 300 

 Australian dollars, right? Is that right? Well, U S 

$330. Not 

American money. Yeah. Wow. 

But when I go and I give each of these shots, each of these kids, that student pack. The joy is just palpable. I mean, you I've given million dollars to get buy, receive from a child when you give them something new.

But then to see their faces, when they open that bag and I have a brand new box of pencils and a brand new package pins, probably never seen, they get one pencil and that's probably chewed. Yeah, no second hand. 

Yeah. 

So it was initially, it was quite a selfish mission for me because I was getting the reward.

The kids were getting the stationary, but the reward I was getting, I could not buy anywhere else. 

Amazing. 

And it's hard to describe that connection with another human being

One prime example of being on the wrong path external and so misaligned at the environment level is Matt Harry's story and how he turned his life around from being a daily heroine user in Sydney, to changing his life around and moving on a path to a successful career in finance and various physical achievements such as becoming the fastest Australian to swim The English Channel. 

 what were the kind of. First steps, that you took to start to change, like what, what prompted you to change? Cause that could be a lifelong, a lifelong thing. 

Yeah, you're right. And I, you know, I often look back and, you know, there was some, there was some kind of pivotal moments that could have.

Taking me even deeper and, you know, often look back and, and consider myself quite lucky to be alive, to be honest. And certainly, some of the people that, I was with at the time, well, many of them have just kind of disappeared or now have a capital who, You know, suffer, still suffer quite serious mental health issues as a result of those those days.

But I've lost contact with everyone. And I lost contact, on purpose because as you say, when you're surrounded by that type of environment and most. Talk with people it's very, very difficult to drag yourself out, let alone your own mental state at the time, even to isolate yourself in that mental state and try and drag yourself out.

It's very, very difficult without those influences around you. But, as Arnold Schwarzenegger locks to site, there's no such thing as a self made, man, you always rely on people along the way 

So in Matt Harry's case, there was a serious misalignment at the environment level which needed to be changed - the people he hung out with and location he lived in were contributing to a path that he did not want to keep travelling down in life

in a very good, a very good mate of mine on, ran into me in Sydney and I invited him. To my house. I'd known this guy biking for maybe 10 years at the time.

and he'd been through university and done quite well. And he'd gone on to live in London and being paid quite well. And he had a career and he was a smart guy and his life was together. And, you know, straight off the set of friends in the nineties, basically. Yeah, ha ha. He ran into me. I ran into him in Sydney and I invited him over to my place one night and he came over and.

I could tell that he was, you know, he was pretty quiet and a little bit, I thought he was just thinking of, you know, I met blinded, he's a, he's a completely lost cause kind of thing. you know, we spent a couple of hours together and he left and the next, I opened the front door and there was a book there called, the Jeff Hackman story.

And it's about a guy that was, an, a link. Surfer back in the seventies and eighties, Jeff Hackman, who lost his way with heroin, and you know, bacon. And he never tried to, he never tried to pull me up directly, but he sat this door, this book on my door and I've still got it. And I've still got the little card that was inside the front cover.

And all that little cards said was, has you're too good for King's cross biking. And that was it. And that kind of started. Just kind of started the germination of something.  You know, I remember might've been a couple of weeks after that, just waking up one, not sort of full four, five 35, four 30 in the morning, something and just sitting bolt off broad on my, on my surf board cover on the linoleum floor and just looking around myself and just going, how did I, what happened?

You know, I liked what happened here. I was, I was a smart kid, you know, I had everything in front of me. you know, I've got a great family only w had, how did I end up here? I never expected my life to. To look like this at this stage, you know, and it really started to really started me thinking. and then fortunately, unfortunately, or in hindsight, I guess it was quite fortunate.

I met this French girl who was also an absolute mess and a regular drug taker. I'm probably not quite on the same level as myself and the other people I was hanging around with. But, I start a relationship with her. And I moved in with her. She had a place in Kings cross as well, moved in there, had a little bit more space, but it wasn't that much better.

anyway, it turned out that she just was cheating on me with everyone behind my back. And obviously this was a, you know, pretty heartbreaking thing for me to have to find out, but it just kind of. You know, the two things that, you know, with my mate kind of gang you're too good for King's cross. And then this blow up with this French girl and finding out that everyone was doing everything behind my back.

I just kind of went, you know what to expect my life. These are the people you're with. This is your environment. This is, this is your lot in life. Unless. Things change, you know, and that gave me the, I suppose, the impetus to, to, to commence the commence, the journey backs are returned to return to Melbourne.

And, kind of went under the wing of my family and some friends and kind of stayed on a mate's couch for three or four months full of anxiety as I came off drugs. And, and we started working our way back from there, 

In Matt's case, having a realisation that he was misaligned at the environment level was quite obvious, yet he did not change his behaviour until his friend gave him a book about someone he could relate to - a surfer who became addicted to heroin, an identity he realised he was like, and those few short powerful words written on his friend's card

And all that little cards said was, has you're too good for King's cross biking. And that was it. And that kind of started. Just kind of started the germination of something

Why were those words so powerful for Matt? They didn't say You can do better than Kings Cross, Bacon. Or You Can Move From Kings Cross, Bacon, Or You Don't Believe You Are Happy With This Life In Kings Cross, do you, Bacon? It struck Matt to the core of his identity - YOU ARE TOO GOOD FOR KINGS CROSS. Those two little words "You Are..." can change everything and they did for Matt

I often notice huge identity conflicts and misalignments internally like this, but in the context of careers. When you use the words "You Are or say to yourself "I am" and then follow it with an identity of a person do not want to be, this starts often an unconscious process of projecting an image of yourself into the future being that person for years, and the feeling that brings up can be enough of a prompt to change your behaviour to stop this from happening further.

When you are thinking about changing careers, you might feel misaligned when you say I am a....IT consultant, or accountant, or plumber. So this is a crucial check of cockpit controls, particularly in a career. How do you feel when you say I am + your job role? Often people realise that they want to change jobs or careers when they find it hard to tell people what they do for a living - there is internal misalignment they have not confronted. I hope this episode right now is making this signal of unhappiness, at the identity level, clear for you, so you can start the process of change.

 One big area that people feel misaligned in if they want to do something different with their life and career is their skills or capabilities, another level in the 6 levels of human experience. In this clip, Max Vishnev discusses your existing skills as stepping stones to developing new skills, a new career or business

everything is like a stepping stone or you can think of it as like building a house, right? You need the foundation, but then you, you kind of have the framework and then you start building out a walls and putting in windows.

So think about like, I think about my journey is putting pieces in place and then that could lead you to something else, something bigger, something better. And you can also transfer the skills you learned to a completely different industry. Right? So for example, if you asked me in my twenties when I was sitting out on a large trading desk, max, would you want, do you think you'll one day be a great tour guide in New York city? I would say, you are nuts, Matt. What's wrong with you? Right? But I didn't know at the time. But you know, I actually became a really good tour guide and I have like 1500 reviews on TripAdvisor to validate that. And it's because I was not shy. I tended to get along well with people.

I had a knack for wanting to learn and being able to synthesize new information. So I was able to transfer that into a completely new industry. But it turns out that even though it's a completely new industry, you need certain fundamentals, right? To make it work like you need, you need to have the desire, right? You need to have the wherewithal and perseverance to get through hard times. You need to be highly motivated and driven and then you need to be open to possibilities. So for me, I have been able to make career changes in the temp different pivots because of those things. So I was able to transfer my skills with, I mean even numbers, right? Like running a tour business still requires accounting, business planning, projecting cashflow, thinking about pricing, competition, competitive advantages. So I was able to harness like I had a finance degree, right?

And then I had an MBA. So I was able to harness some of my business knowledge to build a tour company. Right. It wasn't just like, Hey, let me go become a tour guide. It's let me build a business. So I was able to use my business background and some, some financial knowledge to build the business. But then the, the people skills were honed. Yes, I was friendly. Yes, I was relatively extroverted but I was a crappy tour guide when I started cause I hardly knew anything. Right. And I was nervous. I became a great tour guide because I practice and I studied and I took meticulous notes  I had books on top of books and each book had my notes on it because I read because I want it to become the best store guide that could be so I can grow my business.

 So sometimes, when you feel you don't have the skills or capabilities for a job or career you want - the identity you want to become perhaps, having a belief that you can develop any skills if you put the work in, you have the self-belief you can do that and perhaps if you have the right support at the environment level, you know and believe you can develop these new skills to a level where you then feel aligned internally

Right. That's the statement. So I guess the long winded answer is you cannot be afraid of change because people underestimate how many skills they already have and how transferable those skills are to what sounds on paper like a completely different business. It might be a different industry, but a lot of it is transferable, right?

Sometimes people are aligned at the skills and capability level - e.g. they love the process of marketing and using this skill, and have developed a good level of this skill through training, education or career development. But examining their environment level they may find misalignments. In this clip, George Gehrin, Founder of the McGehrin Group, shares his advice on loving the process of your work e.g.

marketing, but hitting what he calls the vehicle, which you can also label as the environment. And as long as you can understand the purpose - your highest level - of why you do your job or career, you can pivot around this and try or explore different environments or vehicles that showcase your skills and capabilities

careers very related to relationships. If you think about right, if you think about. You know, great marriages, bad marriages, toxic relationships, you know, you know, healthy relationships, the career. I mean, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of commonalities, right.

Between a lot of these things. sometimes, I mean, I can tell you, like, I, I, you know, I was, I'm on my second marriage, right? I've been married for a long time. Now I've got two kids. My first marriage was a disaster. Like no kids, you know, thank God. But the first marriage was a disaster like disaster. Yeah, no.

And at the moment you're like, Oh my God, this is the worst thing that's happening to me. And you're, you know, this is terrible. And then you, later on you see it's a blessing, you know, it's a blessing and, and, you know, I'm a better partner, you know, because I'm a better father, I'm sure I'm a better listener.

And, you know, I've got a, I've got an awesome, you know, second marriage, right. Which is just the reality of my situation. But I think if you're, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're unemployed, Sometimes it's, I mean, sometimes it's not you, right. Sometimes it's that actual vehicle that you're in.

Right. This is a problem. 

Be in the right career vehicle - it could lead to a happy life

I see a lot of people they're unhappy. They, they love what they do. Right. So take, I don't know, let's take a marketing person. They love, they love, they love being a marketer, but sometimes they're in the wrong company or in the wrong vehicle. Right. So let's say they're marketing for a bank and maybe they hated bank environment, but they would, they would love a startup, you know?

So I would say, you know, besides. Changing, you know, doing a whole one 83 60 sort of, you know, flip-flop on your, you know, think about, you know, I would probably get a list and by the way, this is, I don't know if a lot of your, I mean, I, I journal the hell out of things. Right. And make a list of things you like about what you do for a living things you don't like and find a vehicle, right?

Find a vehicle where you can, you can, you can expose some of the positives, you know, I, I like what I do, because I get to help people. I mean, at the end of the day, right. It's, it's not about the money. It's about the help I get to help people. And that's why like recruiting and coaching and branding.

And I literally get to see, even though they don't see it, you know, I get to help the kid, their kids, kids, kids, you know, and they, you know, I get to make a difference in their lives. Right. And that's why I like what I do. So if I were to not do this, I would do something else where I can help people, you know?

And, yeah, they're probably in the wrong vehicle. Right. Get in the vehicle. Where we're where you can, you know, you can, you can thrive, you know, because it's, it's, it's, unemployed. It's tough, you know, but I can tell you usually, you know, it's like a relationship. Usually the, the sun comes out after the, after the storm, you know, it's just a way things work out.

So often in career and life change, people feel stuck, they might even know what they want to do, but they don't believe they can do that role, or sometimes, they might think they won't be able to handle the success or the big changes they may have in this life if they go for what they want but are afraid of, as you'll hear from this clip of best-selling author and Career Catalyst, Steve Preston,

what would you say are some of the biggest challenges your clients facing career transition? When, when they come to you asking for advice support and to take them through that journey, what are the biggest challenges you've seen in the industry that they 

face?

Well, I probably the first thing, Matt, and probably relates to what I didn't say. So the first question, which she, but it overlaps, he, that basically everybody has skills and attributes that they gain throughout their career and they life, which are going to help them to be able to change career. But it's all about belief and confidence to, to, to make it happen.

and, and again, if you like a catalyst to, to make it happen, which is sort of relates to where a career coach comes in much, that can be really important. but it's that belief and confidence. So that's, that's, that's the first, key part of it. and. So many people, like they have fish, Tara failure, fear not earning enough.

fear of, Will it work well, I suppose that's failure. I mean, you know, there's even people have fear of success. I actually had fear of success, which sounds bizarre, Matt. I kept thinking what happens if what I do suddenly become so massively big, I can't control it and it, and it can runs completely out of control.

When I look back on that, I think that's what a nice problem to have. so there are, there are so many different theories. but that, that ultimate fear of taking the leap of faith, you know, moving from where I am now to where I may be, I want to be, or in a lot of cases, most people don't know where they want to be at all.

And that's the big, that's the big question, Mark. All they know is they are stuck. That's one of the words that comes up all the time. I'm stuck. He said, well, what'd you mean by that? Well, I'm frustrated on board. I'm not really making any progress in my career anymore. I feel I'm just I'm drifting.

or some people even worse, they feel like they're vegetating. so those are obviously, key things. and it's. The beliefs that they can move, they can make that shift. and so many people who contact me initially, I think, well, yeah, I know I want to do it, or I know something's wrong, but I don't know necessarily what is wrong.

All I know is I need to change, but that's really scary. So how do I make that change? and. That's why, you know, people need a process because you know, you, you, you, you, you start with a blank sheet of paper like this, and, it's not very encouraging for good, is it? I think, well, okay. So what happens next?

and that's something I found very early on doing this work, Matt, and he said, ignorant of it sort of loose framework. If people can measure their progress so they can start to see things are happening, then that helps them build their confidence and their self belief. and then they automatically go into overdrive.

Matt Harry has achieved many things in his life and gone through some extraordinary life changes as you heard earlier in this episode. In this clip, he shares how self-belief, and making a change at the beliefs level if there is a misalignment there, is so important

what do you think the one thing that's made the difference for you, Matt, to burn from within. 

that's, that's a very good question.   I think it's probably self-belief You know, like even, I think even when I lost my way in my twenties, I think, you know, I was, I had a, I had a really strong family behind me and I was given an enormous, some amount of self belief and I had some success in sport and school and all that sort of stuff when I was younger, which also, solidified that self-belief.

But I had, I was given self-belief. That was still a lot that burnt through the. Doc through my darkest times in Sydney and with drugs and basically being homeless. And it was always there even that was very much hidden. but it just took for me, I suppose, to turn back towards it and go, hi, actually. On better than this.

And I can do a lot better than this and I can achieve great things in my life and I'm as good and as smart and as quick and as fancy as anyone else. and I believe in myself and I'm not, I'm not going to sit on the side and watch life, pass me by. I'm going to be one of those people that I look at and go, wow.

I wonder what makes them tick. 

And when I ask him where that self-belief that he can do anything he puts his mind to comes from, this was his answer

where does it come from? 

Where does the self belief come from? 

   Oh look, I just think it's, it's all based in the fact that our Troy's life is a giant adventure and I look around me and I go. Yeah, that person's just a person they're not made out of steel or they don't have a company.

Beautiful. O'Brian I mean, some people do, but yeah, they just they've fleshing bond and like me, you know, if they're doing it, I can do it. Any of this stuff in the world that I look at, I can do. I'd just have to, I realize that there's going to be a price. There's going to be a certain amount of work. Yeah.

And discomfort and sacrifice that comes along with anything of great value. And once you accept it, At that. and, and you see the direct link between the work and the result. Life becomes a whole lot easier and more interesting. And, you know, you feel, I guess, more confident to take on those challenges.

you know, as a safe, if, if the guy next door is doing it, I can do it too. It's it's, it's really that simple. 

Seb Terry also gives some great advise on developing your self belief

I tend to think that we completely underestimate ourselves as humans.

We don't think we're capable. And we are with each as capable as one another. We each have our physical bodies, whatever they can, whatever they can't do. That's what we have. And we each have these amazing minds to dream and think, and to conjure up thought and aspire to do things. So none of us are different.

Not one person is doing something because they're more special than someone else. It's just that they try And when you try just once on one thing, and it can be a very simple thing, I'd suggest it is a simple thing to start. And I guess I'm speaking to the people out there who always find themselves on the start line, but never take the first step.

Think of one simple goal. And just go for it. Don't care. What happens? Just try and you'll surprise yourself and you'll realize even just 1%, Oh, I'm slightly more capable than I thought I was. Continue that as a pattern. And you'll be at the finish line very quickly thinking that you're invincible as I do.

You know, I w within reason I've made a bet it's that long, but I think I'm pretty invincible you know, 

If there is a misalignment at the level of behaviour, it simply means you don't enjoy what you are doing. So if you work in marketing but you hate the process of certain tasks like writing emails, setting up social media campaigns, this also is an issue. For me, I took a computing degree because the graduate salary was highest and I went to one of the top universities in the world for this course. When I was doing the course, I had a misalignment at several levels - one I thought about myself being a programmer, and I hated that identity. And secondly, I did not enjoy the process of writing code. That behaviour was not enjoyable. And doing more of this behaviour would develop that skill, but I was not prepared to develop it as I simply did not enjoy it. So I actually dropped out of that prestigious university and did a degree in Economics at another university instead. This is why testing out new life paths or career paths is so important - either by doing work experience, internships, weekend volunteering or other routes, as locking yourself into a 4 year degree or 40 year career because the salary prospects are good is not necessarily sustainable.

For more advise and real life experience on testing out new actitvities to check you like them before committing to a new or different career path, listen to last week's episode for a summary commentary around testing things out, or listen to my interviews in particular with Patrick Ryder who took a year off career to figure out what he wanted to do by testing and eventually switching career from decades in mobile tech to becoming a school techer. Also check out Natasha Stanley amazing advice about testing things out and following your curiosity instead of trying to discover your purpose

Which brings me onto our highest level of the 6 levels of human experience model - purpose.

This is where it all comes together. If you imagine a pyramid, and there are 6 steps leading up to the top of the pyramid. The bottom step is the environment level, the next step is the behaviour level, the step above that is the skills and capabilities level, the step higher than this is the beliefs and values level, above this is the identity level step and at the top of the pyramid is the highest level operating human experience - purpose.

The model works like this - when someone is stuck at a certain level of the pyramid, in order to create change, usually by making adjustments at one or more levels above, this unlocks levels below that are stuck. So if you imagine water running down this pyramid, if there is a blockage at the level of belief, you might not know the issue is there, but there is no water running at the skills and capabilities level below. Taking this into a real life context for your career, imagine you wanted to become a motivational speaker and right now you are a doctor. You haven't done any speeches really, but have a powerful message you want to share with the world about your time saving people's lives and learning from the trenches of working in life and death situations and realising more about life and what's important that the average person not exposed to this in their 9-5 desk jobs. At a purpose level, you have a clear purpose, you are internally aligned, you might even have a purpose statement such as I want to wake up people to what's really important in life so that their spend their time doing things that matter without regrets later in life. At an identity level, you have been a doctor, but want to spread the message by becoming a motivatinoal speaker. At a belief level, you don't believe you can make speeches. You have never done it before. At a skills level, you are nervous when you give speeches, so you realise you need to develop the skills to do this. At a behaviour level, in order to be a motvational speaker, you need to practice speaking perhaps daily and work your way up to building an audience. At the environment level, you might need the right support around you to develop yourself as a motivational speaker e.g. supportive friends, family, a speaking coach, be in a mastermind group full of aspiring speakers that motivate each other to progress each month to their goal. You may examine all of the levels and find the biggest misalignment - most obvious one being at the skills level. You don't have speaking skills, so feel stuck in becoming a motivational speaker. Going back to our pyramid, there is no water at this level flowing. So, by examining a level above this, we find blockages stopping water flowing into your skills level at the belief level. You have limiting beliefs around being able to develop your skills to become a motivational speaker. By addressing this - are there are many ways to start to change your beliefs, you can unblock what's stopping the water from reaching your skills and capability level, and develop your skills in speaking, building an aduience, and all the other skills needed to be a great motvational speaker, and continue the movement and flow to your dream career, especially as at the top you have a hugely motivating purpose.

Perhaps you could take take Seb Terry's advice on developing your self belief and set yourself a simple goal to remove your blockage at your belief level so you can develop your motivational speaking skills - he is a global keynote motivational speaker now full time, so he should know!

Think of one simple goal. And just go for it. Don't care. What happens? Just try and you'll surprise yourself and you'll realize even just 1%, Oh, I'm slightly more capable than I thought I was. Continue that as a pattern. And you'll be at the finish line very quickly thinking that you're invincible as I do.

You know, I w within reason I've made a bet it's that long, but I think I'm pretty invincible you know, 

Finding meaning and a real reason, a purpose behind the work that you do can often bring happiness and enjoyment in the process, and even tasks that are challenging with huge obstacles in the way can be overcome when there is a why behind what you do. And when your why is strong enough in your career, often that leads to success, both measured in how fulfilled you are and also sometimes financial success too.

In Luke Mickelson's case, before he built his nationwide charity building bunk beds for kids called Sleep in Heavenly Peace or SHP, he was going through a faith crisis, was unhappy in life. Finding his opportunity to start a charity was partly luck perhaps, and yet he shared with me a realisation so powerful, it lays a foundation for anyone to have more joy in their lives, become more fulfilled and have meaning and purpose in whatever career or life path you pursue.

there's a need for people to receive help, but it seems as if there's also a need on the other side of people to, to give and also to have a purpose and to, to share their passion for service, Wet wet, wet.

What do you think people can, can go in the world if they don't have access to SHP? How can they find their purpose? How can they find it? Passion?

 it's a great, I'd like to set. I mean, you know, we all have a crystal ball that we could. We could rub it and look into and, and tell us exactly what our purpose, our sole purpose would be for me, honestly.

one driving force that helped me realize that I needed to make a change if you will, was, you know, sitting on that couch, w when this all started, I was actually going through a pretty big faith crisis. you know, I had grown up, in my church since I was, you know, since I was a baby, had, had served, a mission for my church in Texas for two years and, and was a very, very developed member.

but over the, over the course of 10 years or so, I had just, I just kind of lost my faith and at least lost the same passion that I once enjoyed and shared. And so, and I think when people do that, I know, and I know that's a big crisis right now. A lot of people are losing their faith. and maybe not just in, in some DD or God itself, but just losing their faith in a lot of things.

for me, I just felt, you know, poses a lot of questions, you know, what's wrong with me, you know, why am I really a bad person that I felt like I've lost? My faith has God forgotten me. And, and you know, what, what did I do? You know, you kind of go into this self-blaming mode and, and it's such a foreign.

Environment, you know, we, I grew up knowing exactly being taught, knowing exactly where I was supposed to go after I die and what to believe in all this stuff. And when that gets taken away, you really are a wander in, you know, into a lost field and you don't even know which direction to go. And, and, and, and you feel, you feel like you've been forgotten and, and be the forgotten.

I felt like. You know, I was lack of a better term. I was being led by, by the devil, right. you know, losing my faith. And I just, I tell my wife, I'm like, I don't feel like a bad guy. I don't feel like I'm I deserve or have done anything that deserves to lose my faith and in, and I was just tired of trying to guess what was right or wrong.

And so when sleeping heavenly peace, or I should say when this opportunity came about to build beds for kids, I specifically remember telling myself, you know, what, despite what religion, despite what you believe or don't believe there's no one on this planet that can tell me building a bed for a child is the wrong thing to do.

And, and so I, I clung onto that and hung to that as tight as I could know. Okay. Despite what other people might think and what I think of myself when it comes to faith, I at least know that building beds for kids, is a good thing. And so that's what I'm gonna do, you know? Right. And I think, and I think people, and I think people find the same.

I, I guess I should only, I don't assume that that people find themselves in the same circumstance, you know, they, whether they, whether they have lost their faith religiously or lost their faith in humanity or, or, or just feel really absolutely alone. I think rather than turning to negative negativity, whether it's alcohol or drugs or, or depression or things of that nature.

I think people, I know people would, would find their greater purpose and passion, if they would turn their, their, their views, your focus away from themselves. that's what happened for me is, you know, the minute I was for years, man, I was doom and gloom and, and just feel myself just spiraling down.

Into even depression and, and stuff loving, you know, and, but, but I always enjoyed helping and other people and that feeling of helping other people always resonated very strongly with me. So that's why I say, you know, what, if you really, we want true joy in my opinion, and my experience. You need to stop looking at yourself and look how you can help other people.

And I think when you look how you can help other people, I think that's when you're going to find your passion, whatever it may be. I had, I had a actual, a mission president, give me some really good advice. He said, no matter whatever your occupation is, whether you're flipping burgers, garbage, man, a lawyer, a doctor, whatever your occupation is always view it.

As helping someone rather than, you know, a job. And I love that because that fits in right with why I got involved or started SHP is because it's all about helping someone else. Not. Focusing in on yourself, because when you do that, Matt, like all these problems that I had, and these worries and these headaches, even financially, you know, I had a great job, but I made money.

But every time you make more money, you spend more money, you get more debt. I mean, you just, it's a spiral. Why you have to ask yourself why? And I couldn't help, but think it's all because I'm thinking about this guy and what's best for this guy. And as soon as I turned that away, And, you know, you continue to have to do it.

Right. the minute I turned that away and thought, you know what, I'm going to forget this guy for a minute. I'm not going to worry about that guy, which happens to be a child. Man. The clouds cleared the. The darkness vanished and, and I, I didn't want to lose that feeling ever again.

And it seems, yes luck can play a role in finding these opportunities to shift from focusing on yourself to serving others. And also you can make your own luck if you are aware of this structure, which you are now. Actively finding people you can make a difference to with the skills and resources you have could be a great strategy to find more meaning and purpose in life. And it's those moments when you witness, perhaps on the face of people you are making a difference to, that unconsciously you change inside. Suddenly you find something worthwhile to spend time doing, that's greater than yourself, a contribution. And this can be in a career serving people in an organisation, seving customers outside your organisation or running a business, and in life, having kids and supporting their growth and development, to creating magic moments with your loved ones and friends and seeing the smiles on their faces.

In the next clip, you'll hear how Stevie Bellamy changed inside when he saw the difference his small acts made to children in Nepal

First, I remember the last conversation you mentioned about the moment when, you gave something to one of these children. I don't know what it was if it was a pencil or something else, but maybe it was a mobile phone. But you said that the joy on their face, when you, when you gave whatever it was to them, like, can you tell me a little bit about that experience of like, how it might've changed you inside and what that was like?

giving something to a child over in, I believe in India at the time. Yeah, 

it was India. Yes. I made up a student pack for each child in school. It had 10 X, 10 exercise books and pencils.  the ruler, pencil, some balloons and some lollies, pretty simple. It's around $5 worth. So for a school of 60 kids, it's $300 to supply enough stationary to last them a whole year, which is nothing.

This is 300 

Australian dollars, right? Is that right? Well, U S 

$330. Not 

American money. Yeah. Wow. 

But when I go and I give each of these shots, each of these kids, that student pack. The joy is just palpable. I mean, you I've given million dollars to get buy, receive from a child when you give them something new.

But then to see their faces, when they open that bag and I have a brand new box of pencils and a brand new package pins, probably never seen, they get one pencil and that's probably chewed. Yeah, no second hand. 

Yeah. 

So it was initially, it was quite a selfish mission for me because I was getting the reward.

The kids were getting the stationary, but the reward I was getting, I could not buy anywhere else.

When we reflected on a moment that drove Phil Evangelou to start his charity Kupendo Kids, it triggered memories of his happy childhood and the opportunity in front of him to continue creating these moments became clear

  would you say that when that moment, when you, when you donated toys to kids in it was Namibia, right? Yeah. so that moment, when you did it, you said your heart melted. Right. Yeah. So was that, is that, that moment that when you felt that it's not how you derived your purpose to actually start this charity, where is the drive from?

Cause I feel that from when you've been talking about it, I might've been a pivotable pivotal moment. 

Yeah. So the drive was basically coming from, how can I make change in the world? That matters to me. and you know, it made me reflect upon my childhood and thinking about all the like toys I received as a child and just being very grateful for that.

I felt this immense feeling of gratitude for all the toys I received from my parents and all the love RSA from my parents and no these children in the orphanages, they have. One foster mother that sort of looks after them, but she's looking after 10 children at the same time. And they called them like mother, like out of respect or auntie actually they call them auntie out of respect.

So, basically I just thought, you know, the drive was. How can I help children that are less fortunate than the childhood I heard? And how can I help also like women who, who need money to raise their families. And that's sort of what drove me to, to come up with this concept.

When I asked Jeremy Lipkowitz, an expert on helping people find purpose and meaning in their lives, how people can shift from being selfish to contributing to others without having to start a charity, he revealed a structure which was truly insightful, digging deeper about why do you want what you want, which often reveals human needs that are common for everyone 

this concept of. you know, maybe being selfish and, and then shifting to, contributing to others and making an impact and a difference in the world there, you know, there's some people that I've been there as well. who, who think, well, you know, I, I don't know if I want to run a charity. I don't know if I want to, you know, help out the poor.

I want to buy more cars. I want to, you know, all of that kind of stuff. So yeah. Is there, is there a way to start shifting from, you know, being selfish to making more of an impact? 

Yeah, well, first I would say that understanding that we all start from selfish, you know, that that's how our bodies evolved.

You know, our physiology is made to protect ourselves. We want to seek out what's pleasurable and we want to avoid what's unpleasant. And we want to care for ourselves because that's how we needed to be in order to survive. So first understanding that it doesn't mean you're a bad person. If you're selfish, It means you're a person.

Right? And so the question becomes not necessarily how to, how to kind of shift that or coerce that, but really saying okay, to each person, what do you truly want in life and what you find from people when you, when you start to do this kind of reflection, is that what everyone wants on the deeper level is happiness.

His real inner fulfillment. And that can come about in many ways, but you have to start with this understanding of what do you want behind what you think you want? You know, a lot of people think like, Oh, I want, you know, I want a six figure income. I want a big house. And it's like, okay, that's fine. Why do you want that?

And if you keep digging deeper, You realize that what you want is security, stability, love, fulfillment, meaning. And so it's more about what's the best way to get you what you truly want, which is that life of deep, meaning deep, inner fulfillment. And so that's what I help people do. It's not about blaming yourself for being selfish.

Like you can want nice things. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's more important to connect with what do you really, really want? And that's the way I work. Is it letting go of shaming? You know, shaming just doesn't work. So if you feel shame, like if you go to a spiritual community and they make you feel bad because you're a selfish person, it's not going to be helpful.

You have to learn how to accept yourself and start from there. 

Jamie Smart echoed this point about when you peel back the layers of what people want, really it boils down to core states of humanity. And so perhaps, we should be rethinking our goals and reflecting what is the real definition of success

if there was a miracle tonight and you wake up tomorrow morning and everything's the way you want it to be, how would, you know, a miracle that occurred? Like what would you see and what would you hear? What would you feel? What would, you know, that would let you know that miracles taking place?

And so they'll come out with stuff, you know, they'll say, well, I'd have this or that, and I'd be doing this and that. And then I'll, I'll start getting behind that. I'll say, okay. So what would that give you? That you would not otherwise have, and I'll dig right into it. And then almost every, and I'll ask them again and again, I did it almost every, okay.

What people are looking for is a sense of freedom as a sense of peace and wellbeing is love and happiness. Joy. Sense of adventure and purpose and alive. It's like, they're looking for those core States. I may have stuff they want to do out in the world as well. But, so I think a lot of times Matt, when people are.

Trying to be successful or wanting to be successful. Quote unquote, they've got a picture of success that has been handed to them by someone else, maybe by their parents or by a teacher or by society or by some stupid TV show or by their friends or by a YouTube channel or whatever. They've got an idea of success that.

Is not their own. It's not that it's not one that they've come up with. And, you know, there was a phase, one point in the, in the eighties and nineties, maybe people are still doing it. It's kind of make vision boards and that sort of thing. And kind of here are all the things I want in my life. People are the mind is incredibly powerful.

People are very good at making shit happen sometimes. And you know, that's one thing, but. You want to have the feelings in it as well, because what you'll almost always find is people don't want the things themselves so much as the way they believe those things will make them feel. And here's the thing about human beings turns out we're terrible at predicting how we'll feel ensued in certain future States.

It's a, the term is hedonic forecasting or hedonic prediction. That's what the psychologists call it. And, When it comes to telling people how we would feel if this happened or that happened, we massively skew the results. We think, Oh, if I had that, then I would be happy. Or if this happened, I wouldn't be happier.

That sort of thing. It's not true where we're not good at predicting that. So the, the first thing I'd say is, start with spending some time, like with. What do you mean by success? You know, what am I friends and colleagues. Robert Holden said, if your definition of success doesn't include love, get a better definition.

And I, I think, you know, that's the thing. A lot of times people's definition of success is one that's been handed to them rather than one that they've created themselves. Based on just spending a little time to reflect on what actually matters to you. You know, what's actually important to you, you know, what does it mean?

Like here are the questions I would ask, actually I would ask what does it mean? What does it mean? Does it mean, and for what purpose success, like for what purpose of why is that important? Like of what value? 600. And what do you know to be true in relation to what's essential in relation to it? So I'd start there in terms of success,

So maybe knowing how you want to feel and designing a life around this, coupled with having good intentions in your actions and coming from a place to serve others, this could be a great way to plan your goals and career and life direction. I would recommend a book based around this concept of setting goals based on how you want to feel - which essentially peels away the layers of the real reason you do anything. The book is called The Desire Map by Danielle LaPorte - I highly recommend reading this and following the exercises around it - it came highly recommended to me by a coach I had for a year.

So, I hope you found this episode useful in exploring the 6 levels of human experience. Where are you aligned and what levels are you misaligned in? The Environment level, behaviour level, skills and capability level, beliefs and values level, or purpose level. To find out more information about this model, which was developed by the incredibly talented Robert Dilts, a legend in the world of NLP.

I would recommend you go deeper into this and I will provide some links in the show notes for further reading, and may provide a group training program on this subject with practical exercises. If you are interested in this, I'll put a poll on the Burn From Within Facebook page - facebook.com/burnfromwithin and vote there what additional training would be useful for you.

Finally, I would like to leave you with a powerful question to your yourself, a question that could really unlock many levels in your human experience that might be stuck. I asked Jeremy Lipkowitz, what's the one thing that's made the biggest difference for him to burn from within, to live life with passion, purpose and balance, and here's what he said that took me by surprise 

what would you say is a one thing Jeremy that's, enabled you to live with passion, purpose, and balance and burn from within, 

you know, so often it comes down to kindness and kindness for yourself and kindness for others and understanding that kindness is not a weakness.

It's a strength, you know, when you can be compassionate towards yourself. A lot of people think that it's a weakness if you're kind, or if you're compassionate, but realizing that that gives you a strength. And when you start asking the question, who am I here to fight for? You know, who am I here to protect?

That gives you a, like a source of strength and energy and vitality. That is it's an unmatched. And so if that's the one question you could ask yourself is who can I take care of? Who can I help? And that will go a long way. 

Please subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already, tell your friends about it if you think it would provide value for them, feel free to leave a review - it's as easy as going to ratethispodcast.com/burnfromwithin, selecting the podcast platform you use, then following the clear instructions given to you. Here's a shout out to JessyJean123456 from the UK who leave this 5 star review recently on iTunes. They said "Genuine and inspiring!

Matthew talks through personal experience of finally finding what’s important and gives meaning to his life. Through interesting conversations/ interviews he is passionate in sharing and helping others to find peace and contentment." I hope today's episode JessyJean delivered just that, that's part of my why, so thank you for continuing to listen and leaving that review.

Until next time, live with passion, purpose and balance, and burn from within

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