Burnout Recovery: 9 Months After Quitting The Job – Malia Griggs

Burnout can be caused by many things – a build up of stress, anxiety, long working hours, poor sleep are some factors.

In Malia Grigg’s case, the nature of her work was a big part of it. As Director of Social Media for The Daily Beast and previously in demanding roles at Comedy Central and Cosmopolitan in New York City, her work usually involved being ON for most of the time she was awake.

The global nature of her role, particularly working in social media, with almost constant updates of stories and responding to posts from readers, made the ability to switch off and mentally rest very difficult.

Burnout is more prevalent now the internet means you can work 24/7

In many jobs, the culture and nature of the work promotes working way past the traditional 9-5 hours. Without recognizing this and responding to it, the result can be very serious consequences for your health and wellbeing. And it can also be quite costly on your finances too, as Malia shares.

In this revealing interview, Malia shares her experience in resisting the clear signs that her health was suffering years before, and focuses on the reason she quit her job due to burnout.

For anyone who has resisted listening to their body and mind telling them to take better care of themselves (physically, mentally and emotionally), this is a unique story of what happens when you let burn out get to the point of needing to quit, and the aftermath that follows.

If you are suffering from burnout, listen to this real life advice from someone that has gone through it and continues to repair from it, so that you can learn from her valuable lessons and rebalance your life now before you have more serious health and happiness consequences.

Resources mentioned:

• Malia Griggs website – if you want to get in touch with Malia to discuss your personal burnout story, or if you are interesting in her writing services, use the Contact form on this website.

Books mentioned:

• How to Do Nothing: Resisting the Attention Economy – by Jenny Odell

If you enjoyed this podcast, please support us: 

• Rate and review the Burn From Within podcast the easy way (in 2 minutes) here

Transcript

Malia Griggs - Dealing With Burnout - Burn From Within

[00:00:00] Matt Garrow-Fisher: [00:00:00] Last year.

[00:00:00]you were at a very busy job. so it was director of social media. And, that was the moment where, I remember reading an article that you wrote about, you were receiving Slack messages and then you. Started to basically weep. And I think you asked yourself, what is this all for?

[00:00:20] What is your source for? and then that was the moment where you decided that's it I'm quitting. Yeah. Maybe take us back. So that moment, what was that like and 

[00:00:30] Matt Garrow-Fisher: what was going on in your experience then? 

[00:00:33] Malia Griggs: Yeah, actually, I was sitting at the same table I'm at now  

[00:00:37]  I was sitting here and I, it was a period where someone had just left I'm on my team from burnout. And when that person who I'd hired, cared and who I cared about a lot, gave notice. The reasons that she voiced to me for leaving, I could hear all of the similarities for what I was experiencing.

[00:00:59] So she said, it's a very thankless role. I like my team. I love a lot of my coworkers, but it's a, it's an invisible job and we're working around the clock and a very punishing news cycle. And it's just feels like, what is this for? And this is what she said to me essentially. and when she said it, I, I couldn't really say to her as her boss, I'm really going through the same thing, but I just said, I know I, I completely understand.

[00:01:25] And she also had some health concerns as well, which I identified with. and so that happened and I think March, and I think when that happened, I just, I had come off of. This last, a spurt of energy, where I was really trying at my job, I'd come back from this great motivating leadership conference for women in digital media.

[00:01:45] And I, was trying to put all of these different projects together and to see some different goals through. and when she left, I just, I realized that they burnt out, that I had been feeling. Wasn't getting better and that my job was going to be, to hire on top of everything else. which is a boss's job, of course, but then you factor in the new cycle and then you're basically, I was basically like on call 24 seven.

[00:02:14] So every time there was any sort of a mass shooting or. Any sort of breaking news alert, I would need to be on top of it.   Hearing that what happened over the next few weeks?

[00:02:25] Is that right? It was then hiring around the clock. I think I worked like 13 or 14 just straight days. and when I say all day, it's I'm sorry. On my phone from 8:00 AM until 11:00 PM every day. I have a staff and they're also on, but if the news cycle is at all intense, or if anyone gets sick, 

[00:02:43]  there was no reinforcement, like I wouldn't be the one filling. Yeah. Yeah. which again, I understood was my role, but I thought. Maybe I'm not the person for this job. I had been diagnosed with epilepsy in,  Working at the same place  a couple of years before that.

[00:02:58] And I had never really taken a proper medical leave. I think the one that I should have taken then, and so all of these things were just coming together at one time. And so I was on my computer. there was not a major moment. I don't remember what the person said to me on Slack that triggered me, but I had been working from home for, maybe two weeks straight because commuting even was exhausting.

[00:03:23] And so I was asking to just work remotely while I was covering different people's shifts. and I had been gone enough crying. no, I guess I hadn't been prying until that point. So that was the first time I really broke down. and I didn't say out loud, what is that? So for what am I doing?

[00:03:39]I really care about the news, and I care about getting stories to people and storytelling, and I care about. the people that I'm managing and my coworkers, but I had been putting off my own mental health for so long. and the things I needed to do to just manage my own anxiety and my burnout.

[00:03:58] And I realized that at some point, it had to be me some at some point. I would have to be the one that was quitting and leaving. And because the second I hired someone else in my team would inevitably quit because I knew that they were, the rest of them were not, very happy either.

[00:04:16] And 

[00:04:16] Matt Garrow-Fisher: yeah. did you realize you were like on a unsustainable path? is that kind of a point, right? 

[00:04:23] Malia Griggs: Yeah, I think I was definitely burned out, between my pre the jobs I'd had prior. I was burned up after Cosmo and I was burned out leaving my job at comedy central going into news, but I was very, I was, I'm still young, but I was younger and I.

[00:04:43] Was very afraid of, not having a job and working in media industries, they're also rifle playoffs, so there's that stress, but also just living in New York, working in media, having a quote, cool job title, and then being surrounded with people who [00:05:00] really appear to be hustling at all times.

[00:05:02] And it's very intimidating and, especially I think social media doesn't and help. And over the past decade, we've increasingly seen that pressure, especially on Instagram, on Twitter as well on Facebook, at least you see the pressure of what everyone else is doing because they're posting what they're doing and you're feeling like you're not doing enough.

[00:05:22] And so you push yourself harder and I was pushing myself harder. and so all of this burnout had just layered itself, but I was not taking breaks. the time that I took off and, it's the U S so you don't have, we don't have much time off. and the time that it was taking off, if I wasn't seeing my family, which.

[00:05:40] Not always relaxing. I love them, but not always relaxing. I was traveling and trying to see my friends and, go on trips because that's what I really wanted to be doing. anyway, so any of us probably want to be doing, Yeah, I didn't, I just didn't take time off. So it all just bubbled up.

[00:05:58] Okay. And then I, so then I got epilepsy, in 2017, the summer of 2017. I, I had been working. I guess I should say I started working in breaking news the summer of 2016, which was leading into the election, the presidential election. And that was, I definitely, I burned out in that year cause I was hedged was new to working such an, a new cycle and especially such an intense news cycle.

[00:06:24]I don't know if you remember the summer of 2016, at least in the States, it was like everyone was on Facebook and it was just constant noise a bit like. What I think Instagram is a little bit like these days and Twitter. but it was just constant noise, but there was like, at least in the media world, there was a bit of an idea.

[00:06:44] Current of excitement. I felt, the election day and then election day happened and the new cycle got more intense. And then, so the following year I ended up having a seizure on the subway.  it was stress induced. And then within the same month I had another seizure.

[00:07:01] I hit my head, and I got a concussion and a black eye. So I did take about three weeks of medical leave then. But I think mostly it was to heal my black eye and, I went home and saw my parents and I didn't really stay in one place. And then I meet pretty much immediately in the next few months.

[00:07:22]I. he came, my boss left and I was promoted to being director of social. So this was the end of 2017. And so I didn't address the epilepsy or the underlying stress from the epilepsy, which was caused by anxiety and from burnout. and then I just, I took on more responsibility and I.  kind of went underground.

[00:07:46]I bought an apartment at around the same time as well, which I have as a first time homeowner. I didn't anticipate somewhat, Nively how intense that would be and moving and just getting that all together. Yeah, there would be, And yeah, all, everything just was, I wasn't seeing my friends. I wasn't, I was, I think I was not a pleasant person to be around and I was like, I couldn't cook.

[00:08:12] I wasn't exercising. I know I had, I just, it was, it was, it just got to a point where I couldn't, I knew it. I wanted to see a therapist. I knew I wanted to be taking better care of myself. I felt like I. I couldn't do what I was doing and do that. And I couldn't change jobs because I couldn't figure out what job I should move to.

[00:08:33] That wouldn't cause the same problem if I didn't seriously take time. And I didn't think that two weeks would be enough. I didn't think that two weeks between, new two jobs would be enough. I knew I needed more. So it felt like quitting was. Really the only option if I want to do maintain any semblance of my health.

[00:08:56]

[00:08:56] Matt Garrow-Fisher: so now looking back, if you're in that position now, what would you do differently, in order to. Maybe stay in your job. Would you do anything differently to be able to do that? 

[00:09:10] Malia Griggs: Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about that now, especially that I, I'm a little over nine months out from my job and I feel much better than I did not, like 100%, especially given how the world is right now, but, definitely have more perspective.

[00:09:26] And I think I know now that I could not. And I'm taking this mentality into my job search now. I think it's two things. One is that now that I've had the experience of being a manager and being the one who makes the, the postings for jobs and being on that side and who goes through the resumes and the cover letters, I think I have a better understanding looking at a job description of what that job description actually.

[00:09:49] Might entail. I also know having worked several jobs in media and social media that having a cool title may not equate, much financially or, [00:10:00] much for your mental health. 

[00:10:01] Matt Garrow-Fisher: But looking back now that what, looking back, what would you do differently in order to be able to. Perhaps stay in that job.

[00:10:10] Is there anything you could have done differently to change maybe, or your work schedule or set something for your boss or even something to do with your home routine, that it might be more of a sustainable job or career? I, 

[00:10:25] Malia Griggs: yes, I wish that I had created more emotional distance between myself and my work.

[00:10:34]and I think. I that some of that was because I felt like I was my job. And even now I'm, that's something I'm struggling with. who am I without my job, without a title, and, Creating that emotional distance, making it just matter a little less, because, and knowing, reminding myself that it's not that you're job, my job is not all of who I am.

[00:10:56] Yeah. I think I would have really tried. I would wish I had gone back and really made more time to find it. Yeah. Therapist. I. I saw a couple of people. And I completely understand that it is very hard on top of everything you do to, find someone and let alone find someone that you click with.

[00:11:14]but I think that if I had spent more time, I'm finding someone that worked for me in the periods where things weren't so bad. I would have been better equipped when you know, work got more intense. I think also I didn't. Advocate enough for myself. And a lot of ways I didn't, I didn't speak up for myself enough and I wish that I had, I did, I did escalate the issues to my bosses over time.

[00:11:39] And so some of my burnout was because I felt like I saw certain problems repeat themselves and then never get fixed no matter what amount of, no amount of paper trail would be enough for some issues. but I wish that I had, I don't know. I think I wish I'd stood up for myself more, but also realized that I was equal to the people that I work with.

[00:12:02]I think I definitely had an, have a imposter syndrome to a degree and that affected me feeling like. like my voice would be valued or that my concerns would be valued. that said there were two times that I did express myself and it felt like it didn't really matter. So I, there's to a degree there's only.

[00:12:23] So much you can do, but yeah, I think going into whatever I do next, I will be taking this, looking to create emotional distance, but also looking for I'll be going into my interviews and asking questions. so how, what does an average work day look like for you? What times do people generally sign on and sign off?

[00:12:43]what's the culture of the office? the things that you value. I think those are. Things that I wasn't asking in interviews earlier. 

[00:12:51] Matt Garrow-Fisher: you raised quite an interesting point about, you, you're not your job, you're not your job. I speak to quite a few people who, particularly when they're in transition in between jobs, some people that they feel lost when they're not in a job.

[00:13:05] And, I spoke to a friend who's. He was sitting at home, he was on gardening leave, in transition. And he just didn't know what to do. He's I don't know what to do with gardening leave is when you wait, when you're in between two jobs and your period in between and in Europe at school.

[00:13:24]Malia Griggs: yeah. 

[00:13:27] Matt Garrow-Fisher: And, people, don't, some people don't know who they are, like when they're not in a job. it's like an identity issue. What, how, who were you when you were in that job and who are you now? 

[00:13:39] Malia Griggs: Yeah, I thought of myself as there being like a work Malia and then just home Malia.

[00:13:45] And what I, especially when I was promoted, I remember thinking I can't command a team where everyone. I look younger than everyone, I'm tech, I'm actually older, but so I went out and I remember I bought clothing that I felt made me look more like a boss. and I came to work and some of my coworkers made fun of me for a while, but then they got used to it.

[00:14:05]I had, I bought a pair of heels that I put under my desk and I bought just like fancier clothing than the flannel shirts I was wearing to work with my, just my jeans. and that kind of helped me. Take on this mindset, to put on that costume. But then I think that costume extended beyond just being a costume to a degree.

[00:14:26] 

[00:14:26] 

[00:14:26] Matt Garrow-Fisher: 

[00:14:26] Malia Griggs: so I felt like I was acting away. I mean, there are elements of my humor that were there and, I like injecting humor and, into my candor work, but, I just, I felt like the goop, the Greeley, the true, the truly goofy essence of myself was gone.

[00:14:43]the things that I don't know that made me creative were gone. I used to love it writing and I do love writing, but I used to really love writing and then photography and, painting and drawing and acting.

[00:14:56] And I was into improv, for a bit. And I [00:15:00] wanted to do stand up and all of these things, I felt like I didn't have time to do because I was, my job was just. Taking up so much of my energy, the time that, a lot of nights I had to be home, if there was a debate or any sort of political event or for is the Oscars or which, again, this is part of,  par for course, but then when you add on the insanity of having mass shootings all the time, it's just becomes, and then the impeachment, it's just a lot, it's a lot for any journalist and it's a lot for someone who's covering social media.

[00:15:31] And then on top of that social media is more than it sounds. yeah, they're the, I think the essential parts of me were the things that I loved when I was a little younger and then couldn't didn't have any space for it. so I guess, yeah. Now I have more time. I have lots of time for that.

[00:15:50] People's like quarantine activities or just my daily life now. So yeah. 

[00:15:57] Matt Garrow-Fisher: what would be like an ideal work week for you now is that all of these elements of your, of who you really are, and you want to have them in your work? Is that 

[00:16:09] Malia Griggs: important? I think what I'm looking for now, and I think I also, the fact that my needs are going to change over time.

[00:16:18]I think this experience has made me think a little less about, the pressure of, I have to be in a job and I have to be promoted in that job and then promote, and then keep moving and going up this ladder. And I'm starting to accept that maybe I'm not going up a ladder. I'm just.

[00:16:33] Changing different professions. I think a lot of us, a lot of millennials are going through that, especially living in the city. and I think relieving myself with the pressure of, I have to get promoted. I have to, that kind of. That's helped. I had a lot of that leading up to this, but after this, I'm accepting whatever I do next may not be, might be an new kind of job or, but I guess what I would be looking for it is more structure I'm looking, I think for a nine to five.

[00:17:04] Not like a nine to five, just that I need to have, structured, sign in and sign out times. I don't know. And I'm off the clock. I want to be off the clock and I would like to, I want a job or it seems like that wouldn't be the case. So I think that means that not breaking news. A job that has deadlines that you can see in advance and, projects that you can work on.

[00:17:27]and I'm looking for more ownership as well. I think as I really liked managing, but with coming the problem with being a manager, I guess the trade off is often you can't be as creative as you'd like to be. and so I think I'd like to return to being more creative. I'm not.

[00:17:47] Completely sure what that means or what that looks like. and I think that is giving me not trouble in my job search, but it's just, I'm taking more time and being more considerate with each posting that I'm looking at. And each application that I send out and cover letter I write, than I might have been before, because I'm more in the process of saying no to things than I've ever been.

[00:18:12] And. I think that feels uncomfortable, but it also means that I've learned about myself. And I know that, that's a lot of a result of having taken this time. Okay. 

[00:18:24]Matt Garrow-Fisher: what do you think about, The notion of a work that energizes you versus work that takes energy away from you. Do you think that, if you're the tasks that you do or things that you really enjoy and, more part of you as a, as an identity that you can actually work longer, or do you think that everyone has, A certain limit in terms of the amount of work that they can do.

[00:18:50] Malia Griggs: I think both. I think it's both. I think that I, both I, so when I say nine to five, that doesn't mean that never work outside that nine to five bucks. If I really, if it's a project I'm really passionate about, and the job I'm passionate about, maybe let's say it's at a startup and it's just me and one other person, but it's for a, cause I really care about, I.

[00:19:11] I am. I think I should be able to have, I think that excitement will be able to feel me through a lot and it has in the past. I've certainly, there have been times in my jobs where I was excited and I had that energy. but I also think even for the people who are, who completely loved their jobs and are very excited, you still need to put in a little limit for yourself where you burn out.

[00:19:33] I think, I being on social media now I'm look, I'm still feeling these twinges of envy. When I see people that seem to be very high activity, they're running marathons and they're, that, this and that on top of everything they're doing. and I I envy them, but then I remember that, there's probably something that they're not addressing, there's something that they could be spending a little more time on as well.

[00:19:56]  You can both love your job and need a break from your job. I think [00:20:00] living in New York actually teaches you that I love New York, but I love New York because when I leave New York, it's, every experience I have is so interesting and exotic even just like going outside of the city seems interesting because it's so different.

[00:20:15]but then eventually I ended up usually wanting to go back to New York. And so that's how I know. I think that I love. New York, at least right now. We'll see, after this quarantine situation plays out. But, yeah, you can absolutely of your job, but you have to make time to take breaks, especially actually, when you don't think you need them.

[00:20:33]when you think you're okay, I'm fine. I'm tired, but I'm fine. I don't know. I tend to think you're not being completely honest with yourself. most people haven't ever really taken off a week just to. Stay at home and sleep and catch up on things. I think most, a lot of people, especially a very ambitious people, really, what's the word really critique themselves for taking any sort of breaks?

[00:20:57]it doesn't come naturally to just sit around and do nothing, or do very little. It's just a feeling of I'm not being productive enough. Why didn't I do more with my day off? that's a conversation. I have a lot with people still having it, and it's a feeling that I'm still fighting and struggling with, but 

[00:21:15] yeah.

[00:21:16] Matt Garrow-Fisher: What would you say is, Purposeful work for you, 

[00:21:21]Malia Griggs: 

[00:21:21] Matt Garrow-Fisher: What has meaning that you, and also that you might be excited about? Cause you mentioned earlier that, if you're working for a startup, for example, and it's something that meant something to you, then you might put in a little bit more time for that and have more energy for it.

[00:21:35] What would that be like for you? 

[00:21:37] Malia Griggs: I think it's work that builds communities between people. and so I think when I say storytelling, some of that is it can be as literal as sharing people's stories, but also using social media to better connect communities of people so that they, there's more empathy, more goals are being accomplished.

[00:21:59]even right now, like I'm I'm idling, but I'm keeping busy. Bye. making sure that. Reaching out to my local Yoda yoga studio from my hometown. And, cause they're now having to move online and seeing if there's any sort of strategy help they might need. Or I have a friend who's starting up plant business because she lost her, some of her restaurant work and she has, and I, I can see what her talents are and how to translate them to social.

[00:22:28]I'm just trying to pitch it in that way. And I'm now thinking about that and how to pivot that. I think more towards consulting work, but I think it's that connection. Yeah. And I think also writing for me, like I, when I left, I knew I wanted to write an article about burnout. At some point it took me awhile to write it because I wanted to really mean it.

[00:22:49] You don't really feel what you're, what you feel. Coming out of that. and that process has been really, gratifying actually. And putting that article out into the world and having people respond to me and write to me about their own, burnout makes me feel a little better too, because it makes me feel a little less alone because, I'm, I may be writing the article that I'm still, it's still scary.

[00:23:13]and it can, it, it doesn't stop being. A little scary. but having those conversations, being able to open them, that means a lot to me. I just haven't quite figured out, concretely what job title best matches that. And I don't know that it's going to, it might take me 10 20. I may never, there may never just be one title.

[00:23:32] I mean, just keep evolving, but I think that's okay. And. that's where I'm at is accepting that's good. And that's fine. 

[00:23:38] Matt Garrow-Fisher: Yeah. Yeah. you have a direction that you're going towards, if it doesn't have to be a perfect thing. Exactly. Yeah. 

[00:23:46]Malia Griggs: 

[00:23:46]  coming out of this time? Because I purposefully with this time, I knew, after I quit my job that I didn't really, also financially, I didn't think that I could travel, but I also knew that I needed to just rest and I needed to figure out. What it would feel like to just have no alarms in the morning and to, not have huge looming tasks.

[00:24:07] So I could just recalibrate my body and my brain. And I don't think when people take off time or quit their jobs, that they spend as much time doing that as they maybe could be doing or perhaps, Should it be doing in a way, I'm not saying they're not knocking it travel. I would have loved to have gone.

[00:24:25] And of course, some, a month long vacation of a kind, but having that time where you're just sitting still and listening to yourself is really important because once you're you listen to yourself and you better understand yourself then, even if whatever you want to do next, isn't so concrete, you have a better ear for.

[00:24:45] What you need. whereas before you might've, you might be so burned out that you just aren't having the conversations you need to be having with yourself because you're tired and you're not in your best shape. So yeah, I think I'm in a better [00:25:00] place. To have those conversations with myself than ever before.

[00:25:05]Matt Garrow-Fisher: so let's talk about my recovery from burnout. So it's been almost a year. Is that right? I'm just 

[00:25:15] Malia Griggs: a little over nine months. 

[00:25:17] Matt Garrow-Fisher: yeah. 

[00:25:18]Malia Griggs: yeah. Yeah. I, my last day off, or my first day off of work was July 4th. So July 3rd, last year was when I was my last day at my job. And it was remote. Of course. Yeah.

[00:25:31] That was a little surreal. 

[00:25:34] Matt Garrow-Fisher: And so since then you've done like a few, freelance writing gigs. Is that right? 

[00:25:40] Malia Griggs: Yeah, I've done some consulting, freelancing and writing. Yeah. I've consulted with reporters and, about social media and how to best use social media. And I've done that just little consulting projects for, people who are starting up their businesses, writing about burnout.

[00:25:59]and I don't know, just Yeah, just, doing all the retooling of my website and all of the personal things that come along, but I've kept busy, but I think the first. Three and a half, four months, I really just sleeping a lot. I would sleep in very late, 14 hours a day. I would take a nap every afternoon.

[00:26:21] And I thought this is going to go on forever. And about five or six months. I I stopped napping as much, and then I got a therapist, and, I've also was keeping, this is not something that I can put on a resume, but I was keeping these very intense journals of my time. That was something I really wanted to do and that I'm continuing to do.

[00:26:42]so I was painting a lot and writing a lot, so that felt. Good for me. as well, I kept busy. I'm also cooking, doing all these things. I just had never had time to do it, And Oh, I hung something up in my apartment. Cause I hadn't done that. since, like eight months or something, there was nothing in my living room.

[00:27:00]so yeah, I was keeping busy with some tasks, but in terms of finances, I had some savings. but also I had, I. I am in debt to my parents for a very long time. yeah, that part has not been easy. I have a lot of anxiety about that, but, it's just the day by day to day by day, it ebbs and it flows.

[00:27:22] I feel very privileged to have that lucky, fortunate, and like it was necessary, but yeah, it's certainly. my parent, my parents are retired, so it's a, yeah, it's not always easy. 

[00:27:36] Matt Garrow-Fisher: Is there anything you'd advise, other men or women, who are thinking about quitting their job due to burn out?

[00:27:43] Like what could they prepare for in order to. 

[00:27:47] Malia Griggs: Yeah. 

[00:27:48] Matt Garrow-Fisher: To stop that recovery process in a healthy way. 

[00:27:51] Malia Griggs: Yeah. if you're, I think everyone's level of burnout is different, but if you're in a position where you're burned out, but you can last a little longer, especially again, given everything that's going on, I'm not encouraging everyone to just quit their jobs.

[00:28:05] Cause I there's not as much stability as there might've been, a few months ago, even. Yeah. But, if you can save as much as you can, try to have some sort of Nestegg, again, yeah. That's not going to be possible for everyone, but I think if. You have any sort of ability to get assistance from your family or even from friends.

[00:28:27] And it's a conversation. it'll be a tough conversation, but if it's one that you're able to have it's worth, I think it's worth having, I'm just, I just really think about your mental health and think about, what. If you don't take care of this long term, is there a possibility you'll crash much later?

[00:28:47] And then the financial aspect of that will be far worse. And, if you're also in a place, I felt like I was in a place where I was unmarried and, I didn't have, and have children to consider there. Weren't like that wasn't in the mix as well. that's all, these are all things to take into consideration, but, I think if quitting isn't feasible for you, which it isn't for everyone, then at least look to take, try and take more breaks or consider do have any time off, maybe not putting yeah, towards a trip, which again, you may not be putting it towards a trip anytime too soon.

[00:29:21] But, even when you're able to think about taking that time to just have a day where you. Just do what you want to do. and if you don't do everything you want to do, that's okay too. creating more like intentionally more time like that for yourself, that's unstructured. and that isn't requiring anything of you.

[00:29:42]putting that, trying to find space for that I think is important and it was something I wasn't doing before. so even if you're not able to completely pull up. Plug in a job because not everyone is, Just being more mindful of that, that you need that. 

[00:29:57]Matt Garrow-Fisher: obviously you've, you quit on July [00:30:00] 4th last year.

[00:30:00]so you've had a little bit more time to work out how to rebalance your life and I guess what's important as well, for your physical. Jean wellbeing and mental wellbeing. There's a lot of people now that are like you they're in the lockdown period of the coronavirus.

[00:30:19]and their started think to reflect just starting to think. okay. I'm not in my job. All the time now, like I might've been before, from what you've learned over the last few months, what would you say for people who are now in lockdown to do with their time, in order to, maybe rebalance their life so that, they take more time for their wellbeing.

[00:30:42] What 

[00:30:42] would you say to them? 

[00:30:44]Malia Griggs: I think just. Jess, take a moment. Really take a moment. 

[00:30:50]  I definitely see an impulse to rush, to do activities and to fill schedules with. Lots of zoom catch ups with people and zoom, exercise classes and bread baking, and they're all, which is great. puzzling there's just there's like all of these things selling out. and I think that some of these things are just people feeling anxious and wanting to fill that anxiety with an activity, which is completely fine.

[00:31:14]but I guess. Consider just having time where you're not in your phone, you're not on your, we're not watching TV. and some of these activities. Aren't great. I think like cooking is a good one. I'm reading a book, a paper book, maybe, be a good one. All of these activities, same kind of quaint and nostalgia.

[00:31:36] Maybe he's trying to not think of them as being quite nostalgic and just quarantine activities that you could actually just continue to keep in your life. So maybe think of this time as a time where you start working on these building, these habits that are more self-focused, maybe it's maybe you want to run or start doing yoga or, these things I'll.

[00:32:00]I, they all sound like self carry, which I feel self conscious about. But I think even though, there's a very cool self care idea with skincare and sheet masks, the things it's still the fundamentals are there, there's still good structure. So it's like activities looking for activities.

[00:32:19] Looking to build activities and habits that you can continue to carry on with you through this time and hopefully transitioning to whatever's to come. because I think. Whatever is happening in the future. there will be beauty, but it's going to be tough too. And so taking that time to maybe start a daily journal practice even, or, I basically builds down.

[00:32:46] So you want to build habits that you can keep with you through this and habits that. bring you back to yourself a bit more, even if you're, living with someone like making sure you can take that time away from your roommate or your partner to just. Do something for yourself. that's not involving a screen of some kind 

[00:33:07] you mentioned in our previous conversation that you love the book.

[00:33:10]I think it's called how to do nothing by Jenny O'Dell. 

[00:33:14] Yeah. that's it? yeah. I love that book. I, yeah, it's one of his, that's not where I was reading the book and then he recommended it and I felt very. Proud of myself.   I think she's

[00:33:26]  our professor at a college. and, she's writing about, basically the, how did it nothing it's resisting the attention economy. The attention economy, being all of the screens that you own. So the fact that you could sit in, like I'm sitting in my living room right now and there's a TV, I have a computer, I have a phone.

[00:33:44]I could have, some sort of an iPad around to, and all of these screens are constantly competing for your attention and everywhere you go, they're competing for your attention. and. For some people, there may be this feeling of, what screw screens I'm going to give it all up.

[00:34:00] I'm going to, run away and join a commune or start a commune. but she talks about how running away and starting a commune, which I think of as like the bread baking, doesn't. Solve the problem and it's not, it doesn't solve the problem for me, those people, cause not everyone can run and join a commune.

[00:34:17]so she talks about this idea of resisting the attention economy and looking for. like a third space and creating a third space. So it means that you have to be the one to say, okay, I'm putting my phone down at this time and I'm not, or, I'm going to respect the limits that I set, the apps in my phone, or like I charged my phone in a different room for the one I sleep in so that I have to get out of bed.

[00:34:42] And I'm not in my bed reading my phone for hours, creating those kinds of habits of yourself consciously. It's inviting you or to be the one who makes those decisions for yourself, because companies are not going to do that. And Apple's not going to do that. they're not going, they want you to use your phone as [00:35:00] much as possible.

[00:35:01] So the only person who can really stop you is you. and that's B that's. Basically the gist of it. but I think she also talks about how in general, it's just hard for people to do nothing. Like they don't know what that means, and we're always trying to fill it as opposed to just sitting that feels somehow more uncomfortable for most people then.

[00:35:25] Many things, which is funny in a way. 

[00:35:29] Matt Garrow-Fisher: Yeah. Why do you think, being able to disconnect and hat and setting routines and habits to disconnect maybe every day or at least several times a week that can help with, preventing burnout, especially. there's a lot of people. that I've spoken to previous interviews as well.

[00:35:47] That said I'm just connected. I was connected 24 seven because I was working in a global organization and I was on call all the time. It is that the power of those habits of disconnecting. How important do you think that is to prevent burnout in the future for you? 

[00:36:05]Malia Griggs: I think they're crucial and I think.

[00:36:08] More people have to start doing it. I think it's like the idea of wearing a mask right now. like a New York it's it's enforced, but some people aren't doing it and you're want to say, just wear the mask, for yourself to, for everyone else as well. and it has that effect.

[00:36:25] I think you don't realize how much limiting your access to that will impact the way you interact with other people as well. And the kind of. interactions that you're looking to have, and hopefully they're a bit more meaningful, but  I think people underestimate how, much burnout there comes from screens.

[00:36:43] I also think, we. We haven't had them long enough that we really know the longterm impacts on our health, of having phones and computers and being so on. I can say, I think my memory's not the same as it would be if I didn't my phone to memorize all phone numbers for me and, to answer all questions, We're certainly reliant, in a way, but also just mentally we're reliant.

[00:37:10] I think it means that our brands are not quite as sharp as they could be in a way. again, don't go me. I'm not a neurologist. don't quote me on that, but I'm like more than certain more. I'm quite certain, there are studies that back me up on this, or that will back me up on this in the future.

[00:37:27]Yeah, I think it's just as underlying, an undercurrent, it's an undercurrent in everything. And I think that how did it, nothing book gets on this. Subject as well, but it's, it's like you can't like, I can't read a book pull book right now. I'll be honest. I haven't finished the last fourth of how to do the thing because I can't, my attention span is so shot that every time I sit down to read it, I go, Oh man, I can't read this book and play music at the same time because that's against the book.

[00:37:52] And so then I ended up, I just keep getting distracted and I'm like, Oh, the irony that I can't finish this book about how I can't finish this book. Yeah. It's like our attention spans are so shot. So it's like almost like a muscle that we have to work. And building back up and the way that you would train for a race as a runner, it's like we have to train our attention spans back to what they were.

[00:38:16]they're never going to go back to the way they were. We're when we were much younger. But, yeah, I think it's the impact of, screens and social media. burnout is. It's huge. yeah. I think burnout existed always for people, but, cause my parents might say, we were burned out, tough luck.

[00:38:34] I'm like, yeah, but you didn't have phones. you didn't have all of these demands at all time. you didn't have constant messaging about things you should be doing at events you're missing out on and things you should participate in. So it's a lot. 

[00:38:49] Matt Garrow-Fisher: what do you think was, has been surprising for you?

[00:38:52]since you've gone through burnout. I remember you, you mentioned about some things were just too much, even things like meditation. we're actually, stressing you out. 

[00:39:05] Malia Griggs: Yeah. I think what I. I think I went in thinking, I remember I said, Oh, I just it'll take about three months and then we'll have another job.

[00:39:14] I really did not have a sense of how tired I was. I think, yeah, I anticipated that I would be much higher functioning, much faster. and I think again, it's. Burnout can be different for different people. But for me, it was so deep that it felt like almost for each job that I'd had, I had to sleep for a month.

[00:39:34] So as after the end of the three months and the three major places I'd worked at and it could sleep, I slept them out. And then I got a therapist and then I started that. So I've been in therapy for. I don't know, five or six months now, which has been very helpful. and just started having conversations about things that I hadn't thought about in years, but yeah, I didn't anticipate how long this would take.

[00:39:57] And yet, it's getting to the point where it's okay. Maybe a [00:40:00] little uncomfortable, especially given all the news, but then the same time I'm finally stopped should just feel very cool, confident in myself in a way that I wasn't, Nine months ago. And I can continue like this and still I think continue growing so, and meditating, I'm still not meditating every day.

[00:40:19] Like I want to be, I'm saying I'm meditating maybe four times a week, just better, And so we'll see how long it takes to get me to every day. but yeah, taken me a very long time also, too. Be able to tell myself that it's okay. That I don't meditate every day. no one really, no one cares. It's just me.

[00:40:39] Matt Garrow-Fisher: So once you've gone through burnout, how do you plan your time to actually find more balance of things that you love? 

[00:40:43] Malia Griggs: Just thinking about what are the things that I really need in my life at all times? what are my non-negotiables. Basically, maybe it's I need to exercise twice a week or once a week, or I need to be able to see my family, every three months or what, what are those things?

[00:41:03] And once you have a better sense of those things, I think then you can Try and make more time for those things. But I think we can easily, we can casually say Oh, family's important to me or exercises. These things are important to me, but if you don't sit down and get a lay of the land and have that conversation with yourself, it's harder to figure out how to schedule that time in for yourself.

[00:41:27]so I think do that first. And then, then you can look at it, your job and think w one of those things am I able to get done? It might be none of the things. and if that's the case, can I have a conversation with my manager or either way, are there things that I can delegate to other people are there, which, Some people are not great at delegating that, that's something to learn.

[00:41:50]are there tasks that I feel strongly about, if someone else does it and it's not perfect and against done, will I get more sleep and be able to accomplish one of my goals? looking for ways to create more space for yourself. I think sometimes we think with our jobs, no, it has to be me or, yeah.

[00:42:07] Things will be terrible if I don't get it done or if it's not this way. And. I don't know, it's like Zappa Hill. You want to burn out on, think about that. Is that your Hill that you want to burn out on it, that's fine, but maybe that's the question you should be asking yourself more does this really, do we really care about this spreadsheet or whatever it is?

[00:42:29] It's probably more than a spreadsheet. you can fill that in.

[00:42:35]

[00:42:35] Matt Garrow-Fisher: how do you, how did people to, get in touch with you and I'm, what, who would you like to compare from. 

[00:42:41]Malia Griggs: Barack Obama, Michelle. I am Malia and his daughter's name, Malia. And you can talk about that. I have a website it's Malia grades.com. There is a little contact bubble, which people can reach out to me.

[00:42:59] Yeah. Through, you can always, you can reach out to me through social media as well. I'll check my message, but I'm in a phase where, and I might deactivate some accounts for a bit, so it's probably more reliable through my website. I have had people send me like career questions, which I shouldn't open myself up too much to that, but it's, it's interesting to get into, Any, if you're feeling burned out and you really don't, you feel like you don't have any money in your life that understands that you can reach out to me.

[00:43:31]I certainly understand that also, if you don't have someone in your life that you can talk to you about burnout, that's something we should, you should think about, that's something we should discuss. really though, Yeah, I guess people who are burned out, also just if you have, Oh, if you were like, yeah, a young, like a young journalist as well, or as somebody who's entering it, considering working in social media and just curious about it, I'm happy to respond because I think I didn't just, I didn't think I was going into social media when I graduated college, because that wasn't, it wasn't really a thing.

[00:44:02]and. If I could go back and tell a younger me or 22 year old me, I'd probably say, just take it easy. And remember you do not have to put everything on social media. Not everything needs to be an article. You do not have to put everything on the internet. In fact, maybe consider just having a lot of experiences that are not ones you catalog.

[00:44:24]Yeah, young people I'm young, but younger than me people recent graduates from college. I like talking to them. I also just feel bad right now. Cause it's a rough time. It's a rough time to be coming out of school. So yeah, 

[00:44:39]Matt Garrow-Fisher: for sure. any final, reflections or, thoughts about burnout that you wanted to share with, with the community, 

[00:44:48]Malia Griggs: just take breaks and try to be kind to yourself.

[00:44:52]I think Instagram is killing messaging like that right now, but it's very true. And [00:45:00] what kindness looks like it's different for different people, but for me, I find it's just giving myself a break and, and being a friend to myself, I'm working on that right now. especially since I'm one of the people who, lives alone during this time.

[00:45:15]as my only roommate, I'm working on being a decent roommate, one I can live with. And I think that's a good goal for many people and hopefully whether or not, quitting your job is the thing that gets you there. Even just starting to think about that as a concept, I think is good.

[00:45:32] And it's one that I've been thinking a lot about a lot, during this time about how to be a friend to yourself and what that friendship looks like. so yeah, just think about that. Meditate on this, or don't meditate. Don't meditate. Meditate is good, but I think everyone associates it with like too many things and I'm like, just close your eyes and take some, try to take some deep breaths and just try to relax.

[00:46:01]yeah, 

[00:46:02] Matt Garrow-Fisher: it's a, it's an interesting concept about being a friend to yourself. And I know There's the whole idea of, if you love yourself, then other people will love you in relationships, but being a friend to yourself, it sparks, thoughts about, how does that impact how you are with employers who are very demanding?

[00:46:19] If you, the more you become a friend to yourself, when you recognize your own. Personal interests, your own mental wellbeing, your physical wellbeing. how does that changed you as a person so that you respond differently? If there are huge demands on social media, huge demands on from him, from your employer, how can that change that dynamic?

[00:46:40] So that's something to maybe think about. What's what are your thoughts on that? 

[00:46:44] Malia Griggs: When you become a friend to yourself, and when you learn how to listen to yourself and how to have conversations with yourself, and also, you're not, and just like a friend, you don't always have to love yourself and you also don't have to hate yourself all the time.

[00:46:57] Either. You can just be okay with certain things and realize that you're a human. and once you have those conversations and are able to more realistically lay out your needs, it's much easier. I think to have conversations with. Your managers and your coworkers about what's accessible to you.

[00:47:15] And what's not actually a big thing about quitting your job is that once you quit your job, All right. I assume this is going to be the case for me. You realize you can do it again. So when you're in a meeting and like their job is you've voiced what you need and the job repeatedly, again, is not able to fulfill those needs, that you can just.

[00:47:38] You can quit and you'll be okay because you've become that friend to yourself. at least mentally and emotionally, again, separate from finances, but, and hopefully, maybe part of being a friend to yourself is about, learning how to budget a little better learning how to be more fiscally responsible.

[00:47:55] Maybe being a friend to yourself is saying. Nope. Don't quit your job. This is not the time you want to pull the plug, this is not, you have a team to support whatever it is. yeah, I think it makes it makes you not, it makes you, it shouldn't be you more employable, but it will make you a better employee.

[00:48:10] Hopefully I'm even thinking as a manager to the people that I managed. I think that if they. if they had been better friends themselves in certain ways we could have gotten more done and more accomplished because they wouldn't have been afraid to come to me and say, I'm tired or this thing is burning me out or, it's it.

[00:48:30] So it applies both to yourself, but also to maybe the people you work with, the people you manage. So if you do manage people or you are a coworker to someone, reminding them. To take a moment, reminding them, this is just a job. right now it's more than just a job, but everything is through that lens, but it is also just a job, 

[00:48:52] Matt Garrow-Fisher:  And it goes back to that whole thing of you are not your job.

[00:48:55] Malia Griggs: If their job is a thing that's paying your, you need to pay your bills. Absolutely. But remind, if you can remind yourself that you are not your job, that means you can start making more time, conscious time, taking that time away from your screens away from your job just for yourself.

[00:49:12] And some of it's just  make 30 minutes a day to do that one thing. You want to do for you or. one hour a week or whatever it is, you can start something. Well, there's no, it can be five minutes. I think we get overwhelmed by how. Large and daunting, this seems, but it can be small.

[00:49:29] And the evidence that is that I can't seem to meditate every day and yeah, I could just meditate for five minutes and that could be the time and every time I do it, I think, yeah, this could be, so I've worked my way up to several times a week   We get overwhelmed. And so we forget that five minutes can just be five minutes and then, Oh, and I think an important thing too, is to take a moment to congratulate yourself your thank yourself for your, any sort of achievements, whether they're big or small. [00:50:00] So maybe you meditate for the day.

[00:50:01] Meditate for the day. It might be five minutes, but say to yourself, good. I meditated today. And that's not something that I do every day, but I did that one thing. It was five minutes, but go meet it's okay to feel that. I think another part of burnout, which we think we haven't discussed, but part of burnout is that we're constantly rushing and rushing means we're also overlooking our own milestones and successes because.

[00:50:28] It never feels like enough. And I think some of that's driven by social media and FOMO feeling like you need to do more, and be more. And so even when something good happens or when you complish something that, took you a long time, you don't always celebrate it because. You don't know, to create that space.

[00:50:48] So creating that space. Yeah. And it's an act of intention. it doesn't feel like it, but sometimes you have to intentionally stop and, celebrate those sorts of achievements big or small. So yeah, otherwise it contributes to burnout. Longer-term. 

[00:51:05]Matt Garrow-Fisher: yeah, I guess my final thought is, like your identity is so important.

[00:51:09]the, people that think they are their job. that's going to consume them because you know that all of their mental energy and effort is going to be around that. As you said, if you start to be. Be a friend to yourself, almost that's a job as well. You can actually create a job.

[00:51:27] I am a friend to myself and I'm going to allocate time to be a friend to myself. I'm going to allocate time in another job to do this social media director job. I can allocate time in another job to be a cook. I can allocate time to be a cat owner, And so rather than having a, an identity of.

[00:51:49]my life is director of social media. It's no, my life has many job descriptions and I'm going to put enough focus in each of those to have that balance that I need and to fit, to have an authentic life. is that something that you, that resonates? Yeah. 

[00:52:05] Malia Griggs: Yes. I think I'm not a brand.

[00:52:07] I am. Yeah. And the differences that a brand is, you're constantly trying to market everything, including your flaws and a person.  you're removing that marketing, which I think is similar to removing the attention span element. it's removing capitalism, removing cap Elysium.

[00:52:26]yeah, but it just remembering that you're a person you're not your Instagram, your account, you're not your job. You can, and sometimes. I think part of that's we don't always know how to say no to things, and we don't always say no to things for ourselves. So that can include, maybe your best friend wants to have a zoom date with you soon.

[00:52:50] And you're really tired and it's been a long week and that's not what you need. Saying no might be what you, the person needs, what you, as a friend need for yourself, or it might be that you really need that conversation with your friend because that friend will help you. having the conversation with yourself about is this what I need, can I say no kindly?

[00:53:10]that's part of it too. 

[00:53:12] Matt Garrow-Fisher:  that's  a huge power of being able to say no. And pushing back, not just in a job, but in many areas of your personal life. 

[00:53:21]Malia Griggs: yeah. I'm already feeling that with all with the zoom culture where, and I'm like, Whoa, I am now doing more things than I normally did before.

[00:53:29] I'm now have a, more of a social life. But, it's people have a hard time saying no, because I think  A lot of us are just trying to please other people or don't want to let anyone down. But I think sometimes you can be a better friend. If you are a friend to yourself first, or at least equally to your other friends.

[00:53:49]I'm sure I know that. The way I was when I was in my job, it, wasn't seeing my friends. When I was seeing my friends, I was very jaded and bitter about things. Very Debbie downer, I'm still a little Debbie downer because I read the news. But, when you're really embedded in the news, it's, every conversation is just depressing.

[00:54:09]but I know I wasn't pleasant to be around and part, and I really value that part of myself. That is a friend. And Part of the burnout quitting process conversation was me remembering that I'm not able to be a good friend to other people because I'm not able to be a friend to myself. And I can't.

[00:54:28] Yeah. I, that's not, that's a non negotiable for me, so yeah, that was definitely a part of it as well. There are so many benefits to being it's called self partnership. I'm allegedly working on an article about it, but, yeah, it's taken me some time. but yeah, it's like just being a good partner to yourself, essentially.

[00:54:49] It's just so you can be a better partner to everyone else. it's like crazy that this is a revolutionary idea. I think for some people who are used to putting everyone else first, [00:55:00] yeah. 

[00:55:01] Matt Garrow-Fisher: Which is why they find it so difficult to say no. 

[00:55:04] Malia Griggs: Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. I, sometimes I want my friends to say no, just please do take that time.

[00:55:11]I need you to take more time for yourself. That's where I'm feeling several friends right now. Please take more time so that we can be better, go, you go figure it out yourself and what you need. And then we can have a clearer conversation which translates to work as well. so many people I'm like, just go and have that conversation and then get back to me so that, tell me what you actually need so we can keep moving.

[00:55:34]yeah. 

[00:55:36]Matt Garrow-Fisher: Malaya, thank you so much, for an awesome interview and just, yeah, I just love how open and honest you are about your whole experience. both, reading your articles about burnout, speaking to you now, and Just your reflections as well, I think is so valuable buffer for people watching and listening to, to identify any kind of symptoms they might have from burnout.

[00:56:00] And also what to expect if you do leave your job or, if you want to stop rebalancing and reprioritizing things, you know what you can do, practical things that you can do. So really well. Thank you so much for that. And, 

[00:56:12]Malia Griggs: 

[00:56:12] Matt Garrow-Fisher: yeah, what's next? What's next for you now? 

[00:56:16]Malia Griggs: I don't know.

[00:56:17]and I think that's fine. I don't think any of us know, and we're spending way too much time pretending that we know when we don't.  we're all living in a time of uncertainty now. So you might as well trying get as comfortable as possible with uncertainty as you can, because it's not going away for a bit.

[00:56:37] So I'm fighting it. Doesn't. It doesn't really help. but yeah, I don't know. And we'll see. Yeah, I'll just keep them, just keep chugging along. Keep having conversations like this, I think as well. they're very, they're helpful for me and every time I have any of them and, yeah, so thank you for having me, and I'm excited to see where this goes.

[00:57:00] Matt Garrow-Fisher: Awesome. Thank you very much. Thank you.